Discussion: GamePlay and Units Ideas

the MiG 35 may be included as its completed

General Psycho wrote:I found the Mikoyan Porject 1.44 or MIG-MFI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Project_1.44

Its an Stealth Air Superiority Fighter in Development

Yeah, the MiG 1.44 "Flatpack" was already developed (it's isn't being produced though, most probably due to monetary reasons and the competitive (and cheaper developments/upgrades of the MiG-29 and Su-27 - which still have a looot of potential, specially the latest Su-27 variants).

There is also the popular Sukhoi PAK FA, which is being developed (5th Generation Fighter to rival with the western 5th gen. fighters such as the F-22 or F-35), it'll suposedly make it's maiden flight next year (2009).

We aren't including those though (we're using more "conventional" choices , even so, new MiG-29 / Su-27 developments make those planes in tip top shape by today's standards).

General Psycho wrote:Also I think we need the MIG-35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-35

Well, the MiG-35 haves a much larger chance of being used in the mod, we don't have really picked the right "candidate" for the Russian Air Superiority Fighter, I thought of recommending to the team that we do a poll (similar to the current US Standard Weapon one), so people choose the one (there are a lot of popular aircraft, like the new Su-37 among others).

James100 wrote:but those r Expiremental black aircraft
i think it isn't gonna be included

Yeah, we are gonna include more produced aircraft (in general), like the MiG-29 (Russian Multirole Fighter). The team haven't talked about the Su-47 Berkut though (it's an experimental aircraft, but still a favorite).

James100 wrote:the MiG 35 may be included as its completed

Yeah, I'd say the Mig-35 may be included in the mod (nor sure at this moment though).

I don't know what your plans are for medical treatment of infantry are in you mod...

... but in addition to zero hours medvee, and any Blackhawk medevacs you may include, I was wondering if you would consider including a M1133 Stryker MEV - Medical Evacuation Vehicle:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mev.htm

The Stryker MEV would a bit more survivable closer to the front lines than your typical humvee would be.

An idea even more grandiose, with perhaps a much higher healing rate (slower in movement and more expensive) in the game, something such as the Armored Medical Treatment Vehicle (AMTV):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/amtv.htm

If this has been brought up before you have my apologies in advance. I haven't gone through the vehilces list yet in detail. I was looking elsewhere in the forum at a post about stryker models and didn't see any mention of any Stryker MEVs.

Tusker2Zero wrote:I don't know what your plans are for medical treatment of infantry are in you mod...

... but in addition to zero hours medvee, and any Blackhawk medevacs you may include, I was wondering if you would consider including a M1133 Stryker MEV - Medical Evacuation Vehicle:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-mev.htm

The Stryker MEV would a bit more survivable closer to the front lines than your typical humvee would be.

Actually we were planning to include the M1133 MEV at first (and even more Stryker variants like the M1127 Reconnaissance Vehicle or the M1132 Engineer Support Vehicle), but due to the fact that the mod already haves 4 variants (ICV, MGS, MC/MCV and ATGM) we decided to include other vehicles to be the main field ambulances, a brand new class in the mod which is widely forgotten on today's war games, the MRAP - Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles.

The MRAP's will be a multipurpose "medium" armored vehicle class which will offer exceptional anti-IED (Improvised Explosive Device) attack/ambush capabilities (it will also have more resistance against planted explosive charges).

Think of the MRAP's as the "gap-fillers" between the ("lighter") Humvees and more heavily armored vehicles like the Stryker and Bradley's, this goes to their cost as well.
These will able the player to do a variety of additional tasks.

If you check our vehicle table ( https://taow.forumotion.com/member-s-access-f5/the-art-of-war-vehicle-table-t122.htm ) you will notice that the US Forces will have 3 MRAPs:

- Cougar HE 6x6: Think of this vehicle as a bigger brother of the standard Humvee (more armor, enhanced anti-explosive resistance, more troop carrying capacity, etc.).

- RG-33L 6x6: This version will be the multipurpose medium ambulance (the standard "field hospital", the one in which we decided to replace the Stryker MEV for extra variety;

- Buffalo MRAP: A BIG, Engineering / Repair MRAP Variant which will be the first accessible engineering vehicle which can repair other vehicles around it.

Sorry for talking so long to get to the business at hand, field ambulances, but I had to make the MRAP's "presentation" , the RG-33L 6x6 will be the multipurpose ambulance (with all the additional advantages of MRAP's):





I'm impressed that basically no current war game (that I'm aware of) includes MRAP's, I mean MRAP's have saved MANY Coalition soldiers (and have gained a great reputation among the Allied Troops for their ruggedness).

Tusker2Zero wrote:An idea even more grandiose, with perhaps a much higher healing rate (slower in movement and more expensive) in the game, something such as the Armored Medical Treatment Vehicle (AMTV):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/amtv.htm

That's an EXCELLENT IDEA!!!
That vehicle would a perfect ambulance counterpart of the M88A2 Hercules Repair tank (the main and heavier US Repair Tank in TAOW).

I have to talk with Marc about that, excellent suggestion!!!

Tusker2Zero wrote:If this has been brought up before you have my apologies in advance. I haven't gone through the vehilces list yet in detail. I was looking elsewhere in the forum at a post about stryker models and didn't see any mention of any Stryker MEVs.

There's no prob at all, in fact, we're very pleased that people make suggestions (to enhance TAOW), we have included several vehicles that people have personally asked us in the past (like the MH-47E Chinook or CH-53E Super Stallion), we are specially keen on keeping a balance in realism while trying to include as many popular (and our personal favorites) vehicles as possible. One perfect example is the AV-8B Harrier II (which me and Marc love and we HAD to include it no matter what ).

The Armored Medical Treatment Vehicle (AMTV) and the M88A2 Hercules would be perfect heavier counterparts of their earlier-accessible medium MRAP versions, in other words, we can make an excellent parallelism between both the medium and heavier classes:

Ambulances:
RG-33L 6x6 -» AMTV

Engineering/Repair Vehicles:
Buffalo MRAP -» M88A2

Not to mention that we can use the MLRS chassis to create the AMTV (thus dramatically simplifying the model creation process.



That was an excellent suggestion, thanks Tusker

The C-5 Galaxy would be a good upgrade, to deliver more units at a time. The YAL-1A Airborne Laser (shoots down missles with nose mounted laser) is an interesting airplane (which I would hate it if it didn't actually exist, possiable upgrade maybe) The VH-60D Night Hawk ("non directional" rotors make it hard to locate among other cool features).
Kamikaze “mode” for aircraft, where they can actually run into buildings or units (maybe fuel levels help determine the amount of damage an airplane can cause upon impact if there will be such a thing as fuel.)
I miss having a unit that can swim like Tonya in Red Alert (If your going to have SEALs they have to be able to swim)
I think HALO (High Altitude Low Opening not the game)and SALH are both good and feasable ideas, I would love to see both in mod (and if so with HALO drops the plane should not even be seen unless there is an extreme zoom out ability) Also the M203 would be a nice addition to the M4 (although it looks like it isn't going to make it according to the poll) upgrade maybe? And with actual grenade rounds!?
When I got zerohour and realized there were no real naval units to play with except in the mission mode even though they had an aircraft carrier being destroyed on the cover I have to say I was pretty damn disappointed. I know you guys said no super weapons but I just can't help but think that it would be fantastic to have Typhoons and Tridents lurking around getting chased by Alphas and Los Angeles class subs (even the P-8 Poseidon looking for all of them (Subhunter aircraft). {could also be a way to deploy soldiers with either zodiacs or by SDV (mini sub, deployed from attack subs). The Russian AN-124 Condor and the AN-225 Cossack are both good and very large russian transport aircraft with amazing lift capabilities. One thing I hated about zero hour is the inability for different unit types to maintain a formation. Any unit in a group should be able to “slowdown” to the pace of the slowest unit. Along with the ability to guard specific units.
From the looks of it you guys are doing an amazing job! Sorry for all the info all at once, alot to digest i know. But I've been thinking about it all day. Thanks for listening and thanks for making a mod I can't wait to sink my teeth into. And snake... this mod isn't sexy... It's dead sexy.

Cheers Jarhead! Welcome on board! 8)

The C-5 Galaxy will most likely be available (specially to deliver some medium/heavy vehicles and as an alternative to the C-130 and C-17).
About the YAL-1A Airborne Laser, that's a very interesting aircraft, but at this moment we might not include it as a controllable unit, that is due to the fact that we won't have Ballistic Missiles, even though it might make it's debut on the campaign mode 8)

The VH-60D Night Hawk's USMC variant is pretty cool, but since it is used as a President/VIP transport, we might not include it at this point (we are including Sea Hawks instead).
About the Kamikaze mode, I'm afraid we aren't able to include it in game, however, the planes can crash and will cause damage in the ensuing explosions (to any nearby units).

I miss having a unit that can swim like Tonya in Red Alert (If your going to have SEALs they have to be able to swim)

Yeah, I know what you mean, we would also like to include naval infantry that could swim, but unfortunately we are afraid that that isn't codeable (meaning we can't realistically include swimming infantry , the closest thing I've seen to swimming infantry on Zero Hour was "floating infantry" - which "floated" on the water, which is highly unrealistic).

I think HALO (High Altitude Low Opening not the game)and SALH are both good and feasable ideas, I would love to see both in mod (and if so with HALO drops the plane should not even be seen unless there is an extreme zoom out ability)

Speaking of which, the zoom in TAOW will be taken to it's maximum limit, we will do that and add many new changes, for example: planes won't "hug the ground" anymore (I mean, a B-52 flying at that low altitude to drop a Daisy Cutter Fuel-Air-Bomb is insane), meaning that our aircraft will fly higher.

I think that HALO jumps are already included (to drop special operation teams behind the enemy lines).

Also the M203 would be a nice addition to the M4 (although it looks like it isn't going to make it according to the poll) upgrade maybe? And with actual grenade rounds!?

Actually, the particular M203 and M203A1 grenade launchers aren't going to be included, instead we will add the M320 grenade launcher.



The M320 is the new M203 replacement in the US Military and since TAOW is placed on the near future, we will arm US Infantry with such grenade launchers.

When I got zerohour and realized there were no real naval units to play with except in the mission mode even though they had an aircraft carrier being destroyed on the cover I have to say I was pretty damn disappointed. I know you guys said no super weapons but I just can't help but think that it would be fantastic to have Typhoons and Tridents lurking around getting chased by Alphas and Los Angeles class subs (even the P-8 Poseidon looking for all of them (Subhunter aircraft). {could also be a way to deploy soldiers with either zodiacs or by SDV (mini sub, deployed from attack subs).

Yeah, me too, I wanted more Naval Combat!!!
We also want to include subs in the mod, however we are still working on the "standard" Naval Mode ("Naval Surface Warfare", if we include subs, then they will be added later on specially since that requires a huge amount of coding).

If so, then we will add many new ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare - dedicated units and weapons).

The Russian AN-124 Condor and the AN-225 Cossack are both good and very large russian transport aircraft with amazing lift capabilities.

Yeah, the Russians will have several heavy airlifters and transport aircraft at their disposal (we have some of them almost prepared).

One thing I hated about zero hour is the inability for different unit types to maintain a formation. Any unit in a group should be able to “slowdown” to the pace of the slowest unit. Along with the ability to guard specific units.

Too true, I hated when I sent a unit to attack the enemy and my Humvees would just rush forward to serve as cannon fodder (while the tanks arrived later), Marc (the Mod Leader) managed to create a special logic which will allow units to stick closer (instead of separating themselves).

From the looks of it you guys are doing an amazing job! Sorry for all the info all at once, alot to digest i know. But I've been thinking about it all day. Thanks for listening and thanks for making a mod I can't wait to sink my teeth into. And snake... this mod isn't sexy... It's dead sexy.

Huge thanks bro! , all suggestions are always welcome (we always try to include units that people ask while keeping realism and specially due to Zero Hour coding limitations which, unfortunately do not allow us to include things such as swimming ). But either way, we will include a LOT of new stuff and use new logics to make things much "sexier" 8)

Its too bad the units can't be made to swim, oh well (thats small potatos). Maybe rebreathers can put SEALs under the waters surface? Hell I don't know.? (if that helps with coding) I was also thinking when ordering SEALs, maybe they could come in 5's or 6's including: Mixture of heavy machine guns, assault rifles, SALH soldier/radio man, long rifle, demo unit)
I also had another idea for a unit.

CIA(GRU/KGB/SAS) Agent/Asset, able to disguise as enemy units, in which case the unit can be controlled by opposing side (as a mole) until it is ready to use. Basically alot like GLA bomb truck but "infantry" unit & does not explode.

*A note about the Hind, I had a friend who was in the Army, he told me a story of a captured Hind stationed on a base out west with the technology to send out EMPs. The pilot either through error or order ended up blacking out the outskirts of a nearby city and destroying a lot of perfectly good VCR’s and Honda Accords. (I’m usually not too amazed by real techy units but this like the YAL-1A seems unreal but actually exists, EMP possible upgrade? I'm not a huge fan of Russia's Army so not really worried about it, just an idea)

Somebody do me a favor and hook me up with some links to this sights highlights pleeease. took me 2 days to find the units list, thanks snake for the link and for the explaination of whats up with units. Keep up the good work guys.

Jarhead wrote:Its too bad the units can't be made to swim, oh well (thats small potatos). Maybe rebreathers can put SEALs under the waters surface? Hell I don't know.? (if that helps with coding) I was also thinking when ordering SEALs, maybe they could come in 5's or 6's including: Mixture of heavy machine guns, assault rifles, SALH soldier/radio man, long rifle, demo unit)

Well, we will try other methods to try to get amphibious infantry (I personally recommended that we should include a SEAL SDV, but we still have to try it).

About the SEAL Teams, actually infantry in the mod will be composed of squads (Special Ops as well), the groups sizes will vary, several soldiers will carry different weapons within a group (for example an anti-tank team, some soldiers will carry AT weapons and some will be equipped with rifles or other lighter weapons to cover their teammates).

I'd recommend you take a look at this post, Marc explains in great detail that new system:
https://taow.forumotion.com/member-s-access-f5/the-official-infantry-topic-of-the-art-of-war-t121.htm

Jarhead wrote:I also had another idea for a unit.

CIA(GRU/KGB/SAS) Agent/Asset, able to disguise as enemy units, in which case the unit can be controlled by opposing side (as a mole) until it is ready to use. Basically alot like GLA bomb truck but "infantry" unit & does not explode.

That's a cool idea, but we are crating a new "recon logic" for the mod, there will be many units which will have the duty of gathering intel around the battlefields, some example include:
- Scout infantry (the first recon-based units);
- Recon Helicopters;
- UAV's (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles);
- Satellites,
among many others.

Jarhead wrote:*A note about the Hind, I had a friend who was in the Army, he told me a story of a captured Hind stationed on a base out west with the technology to send out EMPs. The pilot either through error or order ended up blacking out the outskirts of a nearby city and destroying a lot of perfectly good VCR’s and Honda Accords. (I’m usually not too amazed by real techy units but this like the YAL-1A seems unreal but actually exists, EMP possible upgrade? I'm not a huge fan of Russia's Army so not really worried about it, just an idea)

I wouldn't even like to image what would happen if that EMP went off on a heavily populated area (it would be a mass riot ).

About the European Union and Russia, there are still many, many more units to be added to the table , many of those vehicles would be very suited to use EMP's, though I'm not sure if EMP's are going to be included in the mod big time (they'll probably will, but on a restricted basis).

Jarhead wrote:Somebody do me a favor and hook me up with some links to this sights highlights pleeease. took me 2 days to find the units list, thanks snake for the link and for the explaination of whats up with units. Keep up the good work guys.

Sure thing , check the link I've posted earlier on this reply for extra infantry-dedicated information and material. Our infantry is turning out real good, I'm not sure if the team is gonna release an infantry render on the next update (Second Mega Update), but it's planned for the Third Mega Update.

I recommend you take a look at the Forum Member's Access Section once in a while (we will start to release newer WIP - Work in Progress - Images at about the same time we will update the mod (Second Mega Update)):

https://taow.forumotion.com/member-s-access-f5/

That section contains brand new materials which aren't released or shown anywhere else, also, please note that many of it's sections (like the Vehicle Table) will be constantly updated (with new vehicles, units, etc.).

Once we have our infantry prepared, we'll create an unique thread (based on the Vehicle Table) which will show the current infantry classes and their specific weapons, and just like the vehicle chart, the infantry table will be constantly updated with new units and info.

Also, the mod team was planning of starting to release "Newsletters" once we update the mod. The newsletters will be sent to the member's email and contain info about new important announcements, new released vehicles/renders, polls (to "call" the members to vote), beta announcements , etc. 8)

I was just wondering if you had any plans for using smoke as an obscurant in the mod?

In another mod (Project Raptor) smoke had the effect of not only obsurment but also reduced the enemy's rate of fire, and weapons range by 50%. At one point the mod's creator considered granting a full stealthing ability to the units engulfed by smoke, but he never went in that direction.

In PR the smoke was given to special forces infantry only.

My suggestion for the mod (if you elect to do smoke) is either make it part of a seperate vehicle such as the M7 Light Vehicle Obscuration Smoke System (LVOSS):
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m7-lvoss.htm

-or-

Add it as an upgrade to the M1A2 and/or APC.

Yup, we'll use smoke to various extents in the mod.

An unit engulfed in smoke becomes "partially invisible" (stealth while in the smoke, or until the smoke dissipates).
There will be several units which can be equipped with smoke grenades and/or have smoke dispersion as a special ability, one such unit is the M1A2, check this post:

https://taow.forumotion.com/the-art-of-war-f6/the-art-of-war-vehicles-t117.htm#3431

Note the "Special Feature" is 2x Six-barreled M250 Smoke Grenade Launchers.

These smoke grenade launchers can be very useful if used correctly, besides visual camo, the smoke may be able to block thermal imaging, thus it MAY be able to avoid an incoming heat-seeking missile by "breaking" the Infrared Homing lock (the probability is random).

About the M7 Light Vehicle Obscuration Smoke System (LVOSS), some vehicles can be equipped with such or similar devices.

About infantry, some infantry units can carry smoke grenades, some may be able to use them as 40mm grenades (launched from their underslung grenade launchers or via MGL (Multiple Grenade Launcher) upgrade). Infantry smoke grenades are ideal to give additional cover when a squad is changing position or fighting tanks/heavier vehicles (to retreat).

The M270A1 MLRS, for example can fire a special smoke-filled warhead which covers an extensive area and can be launched very far away (indirect fire).

Snake wrote:... Yeah, I know what you mean, we would also like to include naval infantry that could swim, but unfortunately we are afraid that that isn't codeable (meaning we can't realistically include swimming infantry , the closest thing I've seen to swimming infantry on Zero Hour was "floating infantry" - which "floated" on the water, which is highly unrealistic).

Snake wrote:... all suggestions are always welcome (we always try to include units that people ask while keeping realism and specially due to Zero Hour coding limitations which, unfortunately do not allow us to include things such as swimming

Snake, I have some great news for you!

When you posted the statements above, you triggered alarm bells in my head big time. I remembered that a long time ago I had played a mod that had realistic looking swimming infantry, but I could not remember for the life of me what heck that mod was.

So, I contacted a friend of mine (who I hadn't talked to for a while now) over at cncmaps.com and explained the situation him. He got back to me today and said the following:

"Yep your correct. One or more of Bengs mod has swimming infantry. I have seen Burton and Lotus both swim. They actually look like they are swimming too. I'm sure Beng would explain how it's done if asked."

I also remember that in his mod he had a swimming frogman. Suit and all. It was really cool.

Anyway, I would highly recommend that you go over to cncmaps.com, signup, and give him a PM. Ya never know maybe he will help you and your mod out.

I hope, I hope.

thanks maybe he could help us with some other things too.


i only got one thing to say though, swimming infantry is a little unrealistic if you think cnc wise. because they would then be able to cross large bodies of water in game. it would be cool if they could cross small creeks, and ponds and such but having soldiers cross a whole river is pretty unrealistic.

so what we have as a substitute is also part of our world builder addon. it's fake water complete with animation. instead of standard animations the water will have a skeleton just like the soldiers that will help give that realistic water animation. the cool thing is they would be easy to add. simply dig a little bit in world builder, place the fake water over it, and voila. you have a pond of water in which soldiers AND vehicles can cross over.

we've thought of soo much, i just wish i could show you the top secret taow document, but the current one we have is outdated. many new ideas have been added.

I don't think crossing large bodies of water for special ops infantry such as seals would be an issue. Other special ops infantry, yes, perhaps. But it's not like zero hour maps represent hundred's of miles of water. A properly equipped frogman can go on for quite a while, and quite a ways, in the water. It wouldn't be a fast swim, that's for darn sure. But never the less doable.

As for Beng helping the mod out. I'm certainly keeping my fingers crossed. I've played his maps with HUGE map.ini 's, and a couple of his mods before, and I've got to say he's quite creative.

The water object sounds interesting. Does it have any effects on firing or movement?

As for the outdated secret taow document, if anyone would happen to be looking at this document and 'accidentally' hit the send button, I would be very appreciative.

Yeah, we'll have to test these ideas in game (to see how swimming spec ops work alongside ships).

Speaking of which, you may have noticed the "Amphibious" marking in the Notes section of some vehicles in the table, not all of those are part of the Naval Mode, many belong to the "standard maps":
https://taow.forumotion.com/member-s-access-f5/the-art-of-war-vehicle-table-t122.htm

I'm very glad to hear that. Since I like playing with all the naval toys I can get my hands on in the game, and support the ground ops on the map.

The mod Project Raptor had this kick-a$$ missile launching destroyer that could pound the heck out of an area. It acted like Project Raptor's M270 MLRS. It fired 10 rockets before a paused to reload. Get two or three of these ships to guard a chokepoint, with a firebase or two loaded with infantry, and there ain't nothing coming through that area. It did have a draw back though. It tended to move up stream and chase inbound enemy forces. There was nothing to absolutely lock the ship in one spot offshore and defend the area from a stand-off point. Therefore, most of my ships ended up moving up toward the enemy and getting clobbered.

I would like to make a request that your ships have a manual "anchors-away" switch that will anchor the ship in one spot, and guard an area until manually released. It can twist and turn (sit and rotate for all I care) if it needs too, but it has to stay put in that spot until I manually release it (them).

I'm sure you guys have talked about this somewhere along the lines, but what about dug in, or concrete, vehicle bunkers in the game?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2950706273_08a5d5edba.jpg?v=0

Tusker2Zero wrote:I'm very glad to hear that. Since I like playing with all the naval toys I can get my hands on in the game, and support the ground ops on the map.

The mod Project Raptor had this kick-a$$ missile launching destroyer that could pound the heck out of an area. It acted like Project Raptor's M270 MLRS. It fired 10 rockets before a paused to reload. Get two or three of these ships to guard a chokepoint, with a firebase or two loaded with infantry, and there ain't nothing coming through that area. It did have a draw back though. It tended to move up stream and chase inbound enemy forces. There was nothing to absolutely lock the ship in one spot offshore and defend the area from a stand-off point. Therefore, most of my ships ended up moving up toward the enemy and getting clobbered.

I would like to make a request that your ships have a manual "anchors-away" switch that will anchor the ship in one spot, and guard an area until manually released. It can twist and turn (sit and rotate for all I care) if it needs too, but it has to stay put in that spot until I manually release it (them).

Oh yeah, we don't want a DDG-1000 or a Cruiser running wild (that would be "problematic" to say the least ).


In TAOW, ships won't launch tons of non-stop or very large missile salvos (specially since missiles will be EXTREMELY DEADLY and will have extremely long ranges, I mean, we can't compare the power of a TAOW's Tomahawk with a sissy tomahawk from ZH , even though some ships can launch salvos), other options of sea to ground attack (other than cruise missiles) is to shell the enemy (shorter range but these can't be intercepted like missiles can), two examples are the twin 155mm Advanced Gun System (ADG) deck cannons from the Zumwalt Class which can do some serious damage (to say the least).

Ship-launched cruise missiles are usually launched from special VLS (Vertical Launching System) cells:


This one is a very famous image which shows some Arleigh Burkes on a fire exercise:



Please note that these VLS cells won't just fire "standard" cruise missiles but a greater variety of ordnance (specially on the DDG-1000 case which haves a missile for "every situation").

Cruisers and Destroyers can be considered the most "robust" warships in TAOW and in real life, contrary to popular belief, Battleships are heavily obsolete and were mostly decommissioned during the end of the Cold War.

To put in modern terms, a Battleship would be a fantastic target for the ever-increasingly deadly submarines and torpedoes or simply smaller ships like Destroyers which could easily sink a Battleship with Anti-Ship Missiles (Battleships are huge and slow targets, making them perfect targets of opportunity, specially since a Battleship is extremely expensive on both manpower and monetary investment).

Even during the Cold War, Battleships were basically used as sea to ground fire support rather than ship-on-ship combat, the Battleships started to lose their influence during WW2, when the Air Forces and submarines started to become increasingly effective.

Tusker2Zero wrote:I'm sure you guys have talked about this somewhere along the lines, but what about dug in, or concrete, vehicle bunkers in the game?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2950706273_08a5d5edba.jpg?v=0

Yup, we'll include several options for the defensive player (to better withstand enemy attacks), check this older update:

https://taow.forumotion.com/news-f3/taow-mega-update-t92.htm



Notice the sandbags, some units (some engineering vehicles) are able to deploy these so infantry or other units can entrench themselves and to increase their cover. About vehicles, there's an option to dug vehicles in defensive areas (for extra protection and camo, that's when recon units step in ).

F-22, F-35, B1 Lancer, and B2 Spirit stealth capabilities.

F-35 Lightning II wrote:F-22, F-35, B1 Lancer, and B2 Spirit stealth capabilities.

Well, the F-22, F-35 and the B-2 will be stealth aircraft.

The B-1, though it has a small radar cross section in real life, it still isn't technically a stealth bomber (like the B-2), so it won't be a stealth aircraft.

A swimming infantry unit (most likely "SEAL's") is something I have missed since the first red alert with Tonya. And while I agree that a swimming unit should not be able to cross the entire length of the board with no sign of exaustion and unaided, SEAL's use devices such as "sea scooters" to allow them to stay submereged (with the aid of a rebreather) while being propelled through the water at upwards of 3.5 mph. I believe a swimming unit that is unaided should beable to swim for a distance before having to rest, then continue on (hell maybe even drowned if in water too long if its reasonable). If realism is what TAOW is going for Navy SEAL's swim like fish, able to tread water for hours at a time. I personally would love to see them in this mod, you guys have done such an awesome job with the vehicles, I hope you also exploit the full potential of the infantry unit. Either way TOAW is going to be the best mod to date, I would just like to see it be the best mod period. Anyway I can help just let me know.

Thanks

It'll all depend on the coding and test (I would love to see swimming infantry myself and even proposed it long ago) but either way the US Navy SEAL's are in the mod (US Naval Mode Spec Ops, most likely alongside USMC's Special Ops (Force Reconnaissance)).

One of the fully dedicated Naval Special Operations Transport helicopters was released, it's the UH-1Y Venom (used in air insertion).



Note that we'll also include Sea Hawks.

Littoral Combat Ship idea

Ok I know that this class of ship was talked about and I think approved for the upcoming mod, however, I read an interesting article that I wanted to pass along to the team, along with a possible new idea concerning this ship.

I found two articles in this months (Jan 2009) issue of Proceedings magazine from the U.S. Naval Institute about the U.S. Navy‘s new Littoral Combat Ships (LCS) that might be of interest:
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The Navy's 'Tipping Point'
By Admiral Robert J. Natter, U.S. Navy (Retired),
and Captain R. Robinson Harris, U.S. Navy (Retired)

“… Size/Accessibility/Speed. Given the importance that the current strategy assigns to forward presence, capability building, and collaborative exercises/operations, a U.S. Navy frigate must be of sufficient size to conduct routine transits across the sometimes stormy conditions of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. However, today's strategic environment also calls for a frigate capable of negotiating the relatively shallow littoral waters favored by pirates and drug smugglers. Both LCS designs are large enough (approximately 3,000 tons) for bluewater operations, but have shallow draft (less than 14 feet) for maritime security operations.

Indeed, the ships' shallow draft (compared to current surface combatants) will more than double the number of ports it can access, from approximately 2,000 to more than 4,000. Not only that, but the ships' high speed capability, over 40 knots, will allow them to move quickly from one hot spot to another. And unlike previous frigates, the LCS is well-designed and -equipped for special operations force (SOF) support. With these features, the LCSs can stand off well out of range and detection of target sites or bases ashore or ships at sea and quickly approach and support a tailored SOF unit deploying from their flight deck or embarked boats. In addition, the ships will satisfy maritime security, sea control, and presence missions, and they are also designed to embark interchangeable modular warfighting mission packages for antisubmarine and antisurface warfare and mine countermeasures. Accordingly, the LCS gets an up-check on the size scale for frigates.

Some have challenged the endurance or "dwell time" of the LCS. However, with its range of more than 3,500 nautical miles and with on-board provisions for a month, its endurance is appropriate for a frigate-size ship. Similarly, some have challenged the LCS's damage control or survivability, especially with its minimally manned crew. Such concerns are understandable since the LCS represents a different approach to damage control, one that takes full advantage of today's technologies for remote monitoring and automation (much like that envisioned for the Zumwalt-class guided-missile destroyer). Previous damage-control approaches were based on the availability of large numbers of Sailors. The LCS damage control represents a new paradigm. That said, both LCS designs incorporate Naval Vessel Rules (NVR) requirements for ship survivability. In short, LCS survivability is appropriate, given its size, speed, and missions. …”

“… Modules, Interoperability, and Unmanned Vehicles ---

The most successful example of naval ship modularity is the Danish Navy StanFlex concept, now more than 20 years old and present in four classes of ships. This system consists of a set of exchangeable, mission-oriented containers designed to a common standard for electrical and physical connections on board a ship. These containers are integrated into the Command Management System through a common data bus. With approximately 90 containers deployed on more than 20 ships, the system provides a multiplier effect that significantly increases the effective size of the Danish fleet.

A similar modular concept was specified for the LCS, and it is expected to provide the unique ability for the large number of these ships (more than 55) to be mission-optimized. Given the speed with which the LCSs can race to designated ports for mission package exchange in less than 24 hours, LCS will bring a new level of flexibility to the Fleet. Indeed, the ability of the LCS to "mass" for missions such as naval mine warfare and special operations support is unmatched in naval history. …”

“… Matched to Today's Strategic Environment ---

Flexibility is the hallmark of a frigate, the utility infielder and outfielder of any Navy. As this is being written, newspapers and television news channels are abuzz with multiple stories about piracy. It is anyone's guess what the topic du jour will be next week or next month, but what is clear is that we live in a dynamic and uncertain environment. Who knows when or where the next natural disaster, terrorist attack, or mining of a strategic choke point will occur? What is clear is the need our nation and our Navy have for a large number of highly flexible frigates with bluewater and littoral capability. The LCS will provide the U.S. and international navies a ship that can better satisfy the multipurpose operating needs of today's environments than any other ship afloat. This is all because of its affordability, size/accessibility, open architecture, interoperability, modularity, and its unmanned vehicle-friendliness.

The LCS is significantly different from previous frigates and a period of CONOPS experimentation will be required to sort out the best way to employ these fast, minimally crewed, focused mission ships. Indeed, it was just such an experimentation process that evolved into today's carrier flight operations. So, our Navy's LCS fleet is now putting to sea. Years from now these authors are convinced that this fleet of very capable, fast, flexible, and agile ships will be widely known as the U.S. Navy's 21st-century frigate.”


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Checkered Past, Uncertain Future
By Commander Otto Kreisher, U.S. Navy Reserve (Retired)

“… The feature that makes the LCS concept unique is the use of the portable mission packages to allow a ship to handle different operational assignments. At a briefing in November, Murdock said the LCS "is not a multi-mission ship," but is a "focused, single-mission" vessel. Mission packages are being developed to perform mine, antisubmarine, and surface warfare duties. Each mission package is comprised of a number of individual modules, which are similar to the 20-foot shipping boxes carried by commercial container ships.

Some of the containers, or modules, will hold off-board, remotely controlled sensors and weapons, while others will house data-receiving systems and operating consoles. The use of the off-board systems is intended to reduce risk to the LCS by keeping it some distance from the threats. The modules are to be loaded aboard the ship in port and stowed in the large interior space in the hull. They will be accompanied by 25 to 35 mission technicians.

The surface warfare package, aimed at combating small, fast attack craft used by Iran and other smaller navies and non-state fighters, will include two deck-mounted 30-mm MK 46 guns, used on the LPD-17, and the non-line-of-sight (NLOS) launch system being developed for the Army's Future Combat System. An MH-60 helicopter and one or more Fire Scout Vertical Takeoff UAVs, along with their aircrew or operators, would be part of all of the packages.

The interface between the ship's own systems and the mission packages will be handled by the Mission Package Computing Environment and the Multi Vehicle Communication System. The Navy currently plans to buy 64 mission packages-24 each for mine warfare and surface warfare and 16 for ASW. Victor Gavin, executive director of the Littoral and Mine Warfare program office, said the LCS will replace the 14 dedicated mine countermeasures ships in the 2016-22 period.

The Marine Corps recently proposed another mission package that could support Marines in humanitarian assistance or combat missions. One such mission could be as a naval gunfire support platform in place of the curtailed DDG-1000. That would require more powerful and longer range weapons than selected for the surface warfare mission.

Preliminary models of the three confirmed mission packages have been delivered for testing by the Navy, but some components still are under advanced development. While operational testing on the Freedom and Independence could begin in FY 11, with the growing delay in follow-on contracts, both of the shipyards have had to cut their work forces and have been expressing concern about greater reductions. …”


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My thoughts for the mod:

Ok, lets talk about ship mission modules. When you hear that, what Zero Hour unit already in the game sounds something similar to this? The Chinese Overlord tank, of course! So here’s the idea. How about a naval ship version of the Overlord in respect to mission modules using Overlords logic.

So how would this work in the game? First the ship is either sent to you as a reinforcement or as a buildable item from a captured shipyard (However the mod team wants to play that. I haven‘t a clue as to how that’s going to work since I haven‘t played with the mod yet). Now that the ship is on the board, you simply click on the ship and choose one of three modules (more modules if the overlord logic can be coded in that way) :


* Mine warfare module
* Anti Submarine Warefare module
* Surface warfare module
* Naval gunfire support (for Marines) module (longer range arty)
* Special Operations Force (SOF) support module
* Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance module
* Naval Special Warfare module
* Logistic support module for movement of additional personnel and supplies.

Details about these different modules (and other modules) can be found here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-mods.htm

In the event that the overlord logic can’t be expanded beyond three slots, I would recommend that a second class of LCS ship be commissioned in the game.

Currently, there are two different designs by two different defense contractors that are being built for the Navy:

The USS Freedom (LCS-1) from Lockheed Martin.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-pics-lm.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-lm.htm

The USS Independence (LCS-2) from General Dynamics.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-pics-gd.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/lcs-gd.htm

It appears that both types of ships will be around for at least a little while according to this part of the article:

“ … Cheaper in the Future ---

The next five ships will be designated as Flight 0+ and will include previously approved engineering changes and improvements in construction, Doss said. A major goal is to reduce the cost of the future ships.

"We are looking for affordability. It's not the high-end option," Murdock said. The congressional authorization required the Navy to obtain fixed-price contracts for the future ships, and the cost cap will be restored for the three FY 10 ships. But retired Navy Captain Fred Moosally, president of Lockheed Martin Maritime Systems and Sensors, said if the cost cap cannot accommodate inflation, "I don't see how the $460 [million] number is going to hold up very long."

Murdock said the pending competition "puts me in a good position. I can apply leverage on the higher guy. The guy who gives me the best deal gets three of five, or four of five." He added, "We're trying to keep both in the game until we get good fleet trials. I've got to keep the cost pressure on them." The program also is "looking for stability," he said. "I need to get into serial production.

But the new acquisition plan cancelled the proposed 2010 sail-off between the two LCS models, with no new date set for a possible choice of a single design. Secretary Winter has indicated that the Navy might continue buying both types of LCSs, and Admiral Roughead hinted that competition for future construction could be opened to other contractors. Unofficial Navy projections for future budget years call for buying four LCSs in FY 11, five in FY 12 and FY 13, seven in FY 14 and nine in FY 15, which would give the service 40 of the 55 planned. …’

Source - Checkered Past, Uncertain Future
By Commander Otto Kreisher, U.S. Navy Reserve (Retired)

No matter which of the modules are equipped for the LCS frigate, they will all still have the basic ability to launch Marines, via hovercraft and other watercraft, from their ’waterborne launch and recovery system’.

That’s the idea. Sorry for the long post, but I like to get into detail a bit. Thanks for reading all this.